Breaking ground in law | S.O.S. podcast #129

well hello everybody and welcome to the 129th episode of stories of service

ordinary people who do extraordinary work and I am the host of stories of service Teresa Carpenter and uh sorry

for the little bit of a delay this morning uh the time zones between England and the US always are a little

bit challenging but thank you for your patience uh today I have another amazing guest and somebody who I have admired

for many years from afar Tim parlor how are you doing today I’m good I’m good

thanks for having me well thank you so much for agreeing to come on this has been a a long episode in the making and

one of my favorite subjects uh to talk about is the law specifically within

military criminal justice but the pursuit of Justice above all else and I

first saw Tim’s work when he represented retired Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher and when Eddie Gallagher was accused of 10

UCMJ offenses I was so impressed by your professionalism and the way that you and

the def and the entire legal team handled that defense and then later as you represented steuart sheller who who

as we know spoke out on the Afghanistan withdrawal again it was a very much an

adherence to the law and adherence to the facts of the case uh despite any of the biases that we saw so you are the

founding and managing partner of the Parlor Law Group which is a nationally recognized um and you are a nationally

recognized attorney who practices criminal defense and civil litigation and you’ve avoided pigeon ho holding

yourself into representing only certain types of clients in favor of maintaining an interesting and electric portfolio of

cases you Rose to prominence through your representations of the former police commissioner of New York City the

man who parachuted from the World Trade Center and organized crime figures they’re already well known Yus sky

rocket Tim skyrocketed to worldwide recognition through this defense of Eddie Gallagher uh which really was one

of the most significant war crimes in the history of the US Navy since then you have gone on to represent very high

ranking current and former government officials including state and federal legislators a former State Governor a

mayor a fourstar Admiral as well as even a former US president and what I thought

was very interesting and we’ll discuss this even more is that although you’re known to represent these high political

figures uh it’s not like the spotlight is something you seek and for many of your clients you do handle these cases

quietly without any headlines to protect your clients images and reputations and you’ve been recognized

by several organizations um you’re a regular commentator on CNN Fox News and

MSNBC and we’re going to start off the conversation with my favorite topic which is that you are a former naval

officer a surface Warfare officer who served in operation enduring freedom and

on board the USS Normandy and later the commanding officer of a reserve military police unit Naval Security Forces La

medelina I may have pronounced that a little incorrectly okay thank you and a member

of the US Navy Marksman machine welcome again Tim thank you so first off I

always like to ask my guests uh where were you born and raised and what inspired you to choose a life in the

military service so I um I grew up was born and grew up in New Jersey um and

you know it was one of those things where it it kind of called to me you know throughout my uh High School uh

time you know I was constantly stopping by the tables with all the recruiters there and you know I I I thought that

enlisting in the Marine Corps would be a pretty good idea uh my parents disagreed um and one of my one of my classmates uh

there her father was a Naval Academy graduate in a former service Warfare officer and so you know he she

introduced me to him and he you know kind of told me um told me some things

about you know maybe you maybe you don’t want to just go to boot camp maybe you want to you consider the Naval Academy

um I then met with a uh a somewhat distant cousin of mine um who is at at

the time uh the combat systems officer on USS Normandy uh and he gave me a tour

of the ship and you know kind of um you know solidified the idea that going to

the Naval Academy and you know going that route made the most sense uh and you know I

really you know fell in love with the place and just you know put all my efforts into going to the Naval Academy

and and joining the Navy why did you choose surface was it because of the people that you met before going into

the academy that you chose surface Warfare actually no um so the the first three years that I was at the Academy um

my goal was actually to go into the Marine Corps uh I thought that I wanted to be a marine Infantry

officer and there were a couple of events that happened you know at the end of my uh junior year which kind of

changed my trajectory um one of which was that I spent the summer in quano

training with the Marines and you know through that experience I I think I kind of discovered that yeah I could be a

decent Marine Corp infantry officer but I wasn’t be the best I’d be mediocre

right um and at same time is something happened where my best friend um at the

Academy was brought up on charges uh you know a practical joke gone wrong and he

was facing expulsion uh separation from the academy and he and I sat down and

kind of went through everything and you know I I was very good at regulations and so I kind

of you know as an untrained midshipman figured out okay it’s not it’s not not

this you know what they’re charging you with it doesn’t fit all the elements of that but it definitely is this thing

over here and so you know we built the argument um then he and I went up to go

see the commants SJ Staff Judge Advocate and kind of um you know argue the case

um at the time the commant was uh Admiral loer and you know and and the J kind of

looked at us like why are you two here and my friend says honestly I I I don’t

atics by this so I need him to to explain what this is and so I laid out

the whole case he looked at and said okay you know that that makes sense to me I’ll go make a recommendation to the

Admiral you know sure enough the next day we were informed that you know the charges have been dropped down uh to the

to my suggested you know lesser offense uh which brought her from comod level down to Battalion officer level so no

longer a separation level offense he went in and pleaded guilty he did like 100 marching tours where you march

around in a square with the rifle for an hour um 100 times and uh today well

actually next month he’s taking command of the USS Zoom Walt wow do you think

that was an early sign that you knew that you were absolutely the other thing is that you eventually go down a path of

law so that was it that was that was the sign to me of you know those two events

kind of came together and I realized okay I like the idea of being a marine infantry officer but I’m going to be

just mediocre at that this is something I have a very great talent for it’s

something I really enjoy doing it’s something where I can really help people

and and save their careers their lives their freedoms and so it really developed that

passion in me and so I kind of at that point turned my focus to okay how do I get in into the Navy Jag Corp um which

is not something you can do out of the Naval Academy right so surface Warfare

um appeared to be you know kind of the fastest path to get a lateral transfer

um and so that’s that’s when I decided okay let me let me go here instead um

and to be clear I loved being a service Warfare officer okay I I love that job I miss it every single day of my life

today but but you know I did make that decision because I thought it was a great stepping stone towards where I

really wanted to be which was in a Navy courtroom but it’s also the heart and soul of the military and I did the same

thing Tim I I joined swo community so that I could L transfer to Pao and my

first ship was USS Russell I had an amazing experience with now uh Admiral Brad Cooper who just went I think to

centcom to be the deputy and I’m so grateful that I started off as a surface

Warfare officer and I still feel like I’m a swo at heart because it’s it’s

it’s the lifeblood of the military it’s it’s it is what I mean of the Navy it’s what it’s what the Navy exists to do is

drive warships um a lot of other missions as well but um I I think this

that was such a wonderful way for you to get started and to have those roots and then to do that lat transfer to the Jag

Community which you later did no I didn’t oh you just got out okay that’s the next part of the story all right I

applied and I was rejected really so I applied for a

lateral transfer I was rejected and at that point they were they were at a at a

stage where this is around 2005 um where they were decommissioning all of the old

ships you all the frags and sprins class destroyers are disappearing at a much

faster rate than new ddgs are being put out and yet at the same time the same number of ens are being put out every

year and so we were an overmanned Community yep so they were offering

people to get out and so I kind of looked at it and said okay I

tried the Navy Jag core doesn’t want me that way let me get out and go to law

school on my own and try and come back and so that’s what I did I got out I

went to Brooklyn law school and I then you while in law school I made mult multiple applications to come back on

active duty as Jag officer all of those were rejected as

well wow Tim I I didn’t know this part about your past that’s and I bet that

just made you even that more determined to want to go to to want it it does you know it

it’s the first military case I tried which was you an administrative hearing

um it’s kind of funny because I went against this prosecutor who was a uh a

reservist uh Jag Commander um who had interviewed me on I think my second or third you know go around

and and I mopped the floor with her I totally destroyed her this case and you

at the end of it she kind of looked at me and she’s shaking her head and she’s saying you know I interviewed you why

didn’t you end up going into the jagp and I just looked at her and I said I have no idea ma’am I figured you’d know

better than yall didn’t want me right and a lot of times the people who are doing some of

the interviews aren’t necessarily the same people who are who are determining the board of course but I I had a very

different path in that I had a very good commanding officer and we had over we were Overman too we had we had tons of

incense just just everywhere on our on our destroyer and um I was able to go to

pack Fleet and go Tad uh while I was stationed in Hawaii and from there I

became the community relations director for the people that for the ships that would transition in in and out the

carriers to do the DV what we call the distinguished visitor embarks and so from there I I didn’t get my first board

but that was because they said the swo community needed too many people and then the second board I was picked up

but I hear stories like yours all the time where people are 100% qualified but

it’s just either the timing or the people on the board or whatever don’t get it so you go back so you try to

become a Navy Jag you don’t get it you’re in Brooklyn you’re in New York

right so then you say okay I’m gonna go be a civilian lawyer that’s the next

step I see and so you started building your your your career outside military

look in retrospect I’m happy with every decision um including the decisions of

those boards because the reality is that as a young

lawyer you know growing up as a lawyer in Brooklyn and in New York City uh was

a much better environment I learned so much more about how to try a case um

than they teach up in Newport at Navy Justice school you know I while I was in

law school I worked for a guy named Eddie Hayes um who was you very well-known guy the book bonfire of the

vanities was written about him um

I then spent the next several years working for all these guys you know being mentored by basically all of the

guys who tried the jatti trials back in the late

80s they taught me how to try cases you know really at the highest level and and

I did a lot of great cases you know I was doing these big organized crime you know cases in New York City you know

Gambino family genev family bonano all those you kind of cases and I learned so

much through that experience um and you know so that you carry it forward and

you know there’s no way that I would have ever been able to gain you know the skills that I have but for the way that I did it so um

yes I don’t have any regrets about it I’m I’m glad I think I’m a much better lawyer for it right and now you’re able

to go back into some of these cases with military people but having all this

experience about the justice department on the outside world and I would argue that a lot of our military civilian

lawyers that that do the kind of work that you do don’t have that same background oh none of them do here’s

the I say this with all due respect to the Navy Jag Corp but there are a lot of

institutional problems in my opinion one of the biggest ones is justu structural

it’s the only legal organization in the federal government the Jag Corp generally not

just the Navy but Army Air Force as well that it has no lateral

hires okay everybody there starts at the bottom and moves their way up you’ve

never had an attorney general who started at the Department of Justice and

just moved up that ladder every single one of them has gone somewhere else and gave G some more experience and and some

more learning and so what you have is you have this tiny pyramid where if you get in on the

ground level and you move up within this tiny pyramid you get to the levels of

senior leadership and there’s some good people there don’t don’t get me wrong but they don’t get any new blood in time

and there’s nobody in this organization that has ever really tried a case outside of a military courtroom not a

single one of them all the way up to the Admiral none of them have ever really stood in a US District Courthouse and

picked a jury and so they don’t have that experience they

don’t have you know the the the education really um and

so as they as this tiny Community continues to teach itself right they

lose a lot of opportunities for learning learning and so that’s that’s one of the

reasons why you know when I go into these cases they all went to the same school

Navy Justice school they’re all trying the case exactly the same way they’re all using the same you know phrases the

same Transitions and everything I sit there and I laugh watching them as they’re cross-examining and every single

one of them they they ask a series of questions and they say Okay I want to switch gears and talk about this and I’m

sitting there saying why are you all telegraphing to the witness where we’re going next and and using this this you

know rope formula and and then I go up and go completely

in a different direction and you know none of them are really expecting any of the stuff that I’m doing because it’s a

completely different Playbook well I can tell you when I started following the case with Eddie

Gallagher I just I saw things during that trial and during that case that I’d

never seen within military Justice I I saw all this this demand for transparency that had

never been exposed within our system and I remember

thinking how refreshing this is to to see what this could be like if we were

able to be more transparent about how we do things but there aren’t like you say

lawyers that are familiar with some of these things that we need to become

better at and that’s one of the questions that I know we discussed before the call was what is the role of

the press because during Eddie Gallagher’s case that was a huge part of

that case now it won’t be for every case but how do you decide as a lawyer when

to use not when say use but when to work with the Press versus when like you said

this is a case we’re going to try to resolve at the lowest level well so first of all

I I very rarely involve the press in a case you know they they come they come

of their own valtion um you know when I showed up at Eddie Gallagher’s case I

wasn’t the first lawyer on that case I took it over from you know a couple of other lawyers and the Press was already there

and and so under the ethical rules a lawyer is not allowed to make extra

judicial statements meaning out of court statements uh that has a substantial likelihood of

prejudicing the proceedings so for me to call the press and say hey everybody

come come watch this case and I’m going to make all these statements about it is totally

improper however and and this was the part that I think a lot of the Jags

didn’t fully understand now in that case there were leaks from the prosecution side where they brought the press in um

they were you know feeding them a lot of false information um and and trying to drive

this whole you know narrative and then when I came in I started doing you know

I didn’t organize it but every day when I W walked out of court they would have a bank of microphones they would say Tim

would you come out and answer questions I said sure So it’s like a daily press conference at the end of every you know

day of court and a lot of the Jags didn’t understand they’re like you know Tim the rule says you’re not allowed to

make extrajudicial statements what how are you getting away with this I said guys you got to keep reading the rule

what’s the next sentence the very next sentence is however a lawyer may make

any extral statements that they believe reasonably necessary to counter negative

publicity that was not caused by the lawyer because you guys leaked all this

information and created this whole press circus therefore under the second

sentence of the rule I have free reign to go out there and counter it and that’s what I did you know I

am I am not a person who believes in ever no commenting a case you know the

Press are going to run if if the Press are on a on a case they’re going to run an article okay I can’t get them to stop

it and so especially if my guy’s been arrested and so for me me to say no

comment only indicates that I have nothing helpful to say in every case I will engage with the

Press I will talk to them I will answer their questions to the best of my ability um and the ethical guidelines to

help them to shape the story to more closely match the facts and that’s what I that’s what I

did in that case uh that’s what I do in in all cases so I have I have very good

relationships you know with the press as a result how did you transition from

working the civilian cases back at the doj and elsewhere to

transitioning to taking the Gallagher case or was that your first military case or did you just start to slowly

transition into more military cases how did that come about so at the time you know I was I was in New York City uh and

so there’s not a lot of military in New York City you know I did some stuff I did um yeah I did some things over at

The Reserve Center you know which I found to be you know fun and and something you know to give back I did a

um a court marshal for a um for an A New York based recruiter um who was accused

of falsifying medical um documentation to be able to get recruits in um and so

I had done some of that type of stuff um but then when the Gallagher case came up

um and I was invited to you know to participate you know that was really my

opportunity to you know to go in deep on it and it was an opportunity that I

think for me was just perfectly suited because I had spent so much time in the

district courts and in the state courts of New York City kind of you know honing

my skills and then to come back over here and and to do that case and you know

when we walked into the room I’m the only lawyer there that didn’t go to Navy Justice

school I’m also the only lawyer in the room that’s Warfare

qualified and that and that was a huge difference because there were a lot of things that happened in that trial

that the lawyers didn’t appreciate you know our our jury panel

in that case we had one enlisted seal we had the the foreman or the

president of the jury which was a former uh you know recent ddg Co um swo and the

rest were pretty much senior enlisted infantry Marines H so we had a phenomenal jury

panel like a jury that really did reflect the jury of your peers and so things would happen in

there there I remember this one instance in particular where one of the witnesses we presented which was the

um the guy attached to the platoon who was like the crypto Intel type guy and

he had been on all the operations he had seen all the things he knew the intelligence behind it and so he was

able to very clearly speak to whether things were appropriate uh whether you

know they were shooting at civilians and that kind of stuff and when he was

describing his his job in an unclassified way he basically said you know I have I have headset on um and so

I have you know one radio net in this year one radio net in this year and then I also have my little screen here with a

with a chat window and that’s how I’m getting all the information so that’s how I know the bad guys are over there

these guys over here are not bad guys so don’t shoot at them and the prosecutor gets up and starts cross-examining him

and he he he first of all he had his back to the jury and he’s looking at the witness which I never do I go the other

way um and he starts cross-examining him on sweet so you’re listening to One radio in this year and another in this

year and you have a chat window how could you possibly know anything that’s going

on and since he has his back to the jury he has no idea that they’re all sitting

behind him laughing at him because especially the swo who’s sitting there

saying oh only two radio that’s right um and I looked around the room Eddie and I

looked around the room we realized every lawyer in the room thinks he’s making a great point and

every person that’s actually deployed you know in a combat scenario thinks

that he’s making a fo of himself right yeah that that’s that’s one of the

most unfortunate Parts I think about a lot of our um communities I mean I can say the same thing about the public

affairs Community um I’ve been mostly oper my whole career but we have public

affairs officers whove gone to the Pentagon and then they never leave the Pentagon and they really lose sight of

what happens at the fleet level because they just don’t have that same knowledge

anymore and it’s one of the reasons why I always wanted the jobs like the one I have today where I’m at I’m at where the

action is happening where the people are deploying we’re where we’re doing the operations because I I think that where

the rubber meets the road is the most exciting part of of being in the service or being in any craft really um so it’s

interesting you say that what do you think would improve the military Jag

Community like you say maybe lat transferring people later on in their careers and allowing people to come in

at the 0304 pay grade would that be something that you’d suggest I I think

that would help but so I have a lot of ideas on this

um first I think that there you need to redo

training and and bring in people from the outside to help to help with the

training um and and you can do that any number of ways whether you you know redo

you know just tool the retool the curriculum in David Justice school but what I would do is actually I would

suggest increasing the reservist side of things yep bring in

more Federal prosecutors as reservists bring in more

defense attorneys people like me as reservists and then match them up with

the active duty trial lawyers and then imagine if you will some Lieutenant

trying a case with somebody like me as a second seat h be so powerful to help Mentor

them through the process like in the actual you know case so I think that you

could do something like that um there are other things that I would suggest one of the things is I would take all

the judges out of uniform um because the way that the you know

detailing system works um you have people moving back and forth constantly you’re a prosecutor

today you’ll be a defense attorney tomorrow the judge judges you judge today but tomorrow he’ll be you

commanding officer of the defense attorneys and so throughout you have a

baked in Conflict where all of these attorneys are realizing that the person

that I’m going against or the person I’m appearing in front of tomorrow could be writing my fitre

right and that to me is a conflict you know if I appear in front of a district

court judge and I have an associate who’s even thinking about applying to the US attorney’s office we have to

disclose that as a potential conflict right that that he he or she may you

know take certain actions because of what they want to do for their next job as opposed to what’s the best interest of clients right now so I

would I would I would consider even splitting out prosecution and defense

into separate communities I would take the judges out of uniform form entirely you know and

civilianized it you know make it you know retired Jags who can come back for

you know as as appointments as you know military you know judges um I would consider maybe even

consolidating it across the services and instead of having you a Navy courtroom an Air Force courtroom and an army

courtroom just make General military district courts um you know so that you have you

know some level of consistency and professionalism across the board board uh and also I would consider you

know what they’re doing right now a lot of these reforms that they bring up yeah I love when people try to

you know bring up you know some of Senator Joel brand uh you know some of

her initiatives and they say what do you think of this and they’re expecting me to say oh it’s a terrible idea and and I

always surprise him by saying eh it’s a good start doesn’t go far enough are you

talking about taking the um the prosecutions for sexual assault and domestic violence and things like that

out of the hands of commanding officers and putting those into a special prosecutor’s office right so they

they’ve now established the office of the special trial C and so you know in each area you now have you know you go

into Norfolk in the building there and you have the defense service office you have the regional legal service office

which is the the old prosecutor’s office you have the office of the special trial counsil so you now have two different PR

utor’s office in the same building but you didn’t you didn’t get a special defense attorney

side and even though you have these two separate prosecutors offices they’re staffed by the same

people you know right it’s it’s just somebody who was transferred you know just move your desk from downstairs to

upstairs you’ve gone from being a regular prosecutor to to a special

prosecutor but they haven’t changed the training really right it’s not like they’re specially trained to take on

those kinds of cases but do you think that it might solve some of the conflict of interest issues for those particular

charges so people who are accused of those things now know that it’s not just

their commanding officer who’s going to determine whether or not this case moves forward so I think that’s a start as you

said absolutely I think I think it’s a great start I think that you have you have somebody and look the the

guy that they chose for the lead special trial counsil Admiral Stevens he’s a guy I got a lot of respect for I think he’s

a great choice for that job and so he’s a guy who can really make decisions and

exercise discretion as to is this a case we really should try because that’s another problem that I see and it’s it’s

more of a it’s an Institutional mindset where so many of these Jags are thinking

what can we do well we can charge them with this we can do this and therefore

we will and and they skip over the whole section of you know that the US

attorney’s office and the district attor is offences all do which is should we

should we you know just because you can charge somebody with that should you you

know prosecutorial discretion is something that I deal with every single day with doj and and with all these

other prosecutors offices and then then you walk into a military you know court and you talk about prosecutorial

discretion and yes our discretion is we’re just going to do everything if we can do it we will right

and that eats up a lot of time and a lot of resources and sometimes it’s for cases that may not hold enough

evidence to be able to pade forward when when Senator Joel lebrand sits there and

says we need special prosecutors because the conviction rate of sexual assaults

is too low the reason why the conviction rate is so low is not because the

prosecutors aren’t trained it’s because they’re Prosecuting every single case whether it has evidence or not right you

know there is there is no you know triage there where there I mean procedurally it’s there but in

reality if they can do it they do do it and I had a defense attorney on my

show not maybe a little about a year ago who even said to me that those cases uh

the sexual assault type cases are the hardest hardest to prosecute because of

the fact that uh the the evidence a lot of times is is is mostly hearsay or it’s

it’s it’s people’s testimony at the time A lot of times there’s no there’s no hard evidence of of those issues and it

really comes down to if if if the person is believable if the person’s willing to testify all all these factors which make

these cases so difficult but nobody I feel like there isn’t anyone that wants to have that conversation and to say

those things I don’t mind having the conversation well that’s why we’re

having it because and I think that’s unfortunate that that’s the cold hard reality but you talk to any attorney

who’s done these cases and they’ll tell you that that’s the the part that makes

these cases so difficult and why a lot of these cases don’t get prosecuted is

because it is very hard to prove these types of cases it is it’s hard to prove

and it’s also something that um you they talk about how it’s the most frequently

under reported crime it also happens to be the most frequently falsely reported

crime and that’s you know that’s a problem and you know

it’s it’s difficult to prosecute but it’s also difficult to defend uh and you know when I have done

those types of cases it’s one of those things where you have to you can’t just attack the

evidence um if a woman comes in and tells the story I can sit there and poke

holes and say oh well you said it was on the third floor but really it was on the second floor you said it was 2 o’clock

it was really 3:00 I can pull all of these elements out and I can show that

you know certain aspects of her story can’t possibly be true but at the end of

the trial the prosecutor is going to get up and he’s going to say okay yeah he he poked a couple of holes in her story but

you have to remember why would she lie why would she come in here and and

make these accusations if something didn’t happen to her why would she put herself through this embarrassment and

and and what Mr paror just did to her on the understand why would she put her through all that put herself through all

that if something didn’t happen to her and oftentimes juries will sit there and say

you know something happened to this woman maybe she got some details off because of the the trauma of it but yeah

I think he really did do it and so as a defense attorney even though it’s not I

have no burden of proof I don’t have to prove these particular elements in order

to be successful in those types of cases you have to go beyond simply taking the

story apart and go to why yeah why why would they right falsely accuse exactly and and

that’s the question you have to ask Hard One to answer it is and sometimes like I’ve tried I haven’t tried one of these

in the military but I’ve tried them on the outside and sometimes the answer is they were out drinking and in the

morning she sobered up and realized that she had you know made a mistake and cheated on her boyfriend and it was

easier to say that she was raped than to admit that she had cheated um I I’ve seen those cases and

when you present that to the jury so they can understand okay there’s a

reason why she told this story and that’s when the jury will say

okay I understand and and quite frankly it’s that

principle also applied to Eddie Gallagher’s case uh and and I I kind of told him

from the beginning I’m like you know his murder cases go this one’s kind of like a rape case because you’re being accused by

members of your platoon and so we could take apart the story but

ultimately the jury’s going to sit there and say why are members of the platoon turning against their own Chief if

something didn’t happen and so we needed to be able to explain to the jury why what was the witness’s

motivation to lie not just that they lie but what is their motivation to lie

so that they could you know they could understand and be able to quit when you go back to that case I

mean what what do you think was their motivation to lie so it was that was a

very unique case um in a lot of ways it was a very unique platoon that he had

you know Eddie was on his eighth combat deployment uh he came into this platoon and and the way the S platoon work is

you know when you graduate wait and you first go to your first platoon you usually stay through that platoon through three

diplomes and so the the most senior people under him were first classes who

were on their third deployment all with the same platoon the first deployment they went

to Afghanistan and they were training the police force there so they weren’t in combat the second deployment they

were in Guam there’s no combat in Guam the third com third deployment

they’re in the Battle of mosul and so the first time that these guys have ever been shot at is under

Eddie H platoon and so it was a very bizarre

platoon to have this long after 911 where you have no combat veterans

whatsoever and you know some of them were were definitely scared because the way that the mission was it was not a

classic seal miss you know they were going out during the day never at night

and they were not moving too far you it was they were advising assisting and

accompanying the Iraqis and the Battle of mosul was being

taken yards at a time and sometimes they would have to go to the same roof multiple days in a row and they’re all

sitting there saying well wait a minute they taught me in Sniper school that you never go to the same hide twice and

Eddie keeps telling us to go the same hide day after day after day this is dangerous you know he he’s he’s being

he’s being dangerous and they made these complaints that they didn’t like his tactics at the

time and you know the The Troop commander and the troop senior listed

said no those are legitimate tactics this is just a different Mission than you’re used

to um you know exposing yourself to enemy fire to draw the fire to figure out where to return fire things like

that right um and I think a lot of them were you

know not ready for that they didn’t like it they you know they started making other complaints oh he he stole stuff

from our barracks and it escalated because none of these complaints were actually

working to get what they wanted which was for him to be removed uh and and they weren’t being

addressed so they were just incrementally trying to find a way and then I think they Eddie’s wife called it

like a sewing Circle but it was kind of like no she didn’t they did oh really

they did they the group text group WhatsApp text was actually called The

Sewing Circle that’s just crazy to me yeah and I mean it really shows you the power of group think and and what

happens when one person or a leader in those groups because if I recall the case correctly there were a couple

people that sort of spearheaded this correct coordinated campaign to try to

take him down it was a small group really it was about four people that were really you heavily involved in this

it was not the whole platoon like the media said um that the prosecutor linked

to them but ultimately and here’s the actual story of what happened

that day you know in MOS um which hasn’t really been told like

all the breadcrumbs are out there but nobody’s really yeah I’ve told it a few times but nobody’s really told it in

this concise fashion as I’m about to explain it to you but what happened is

they were assigned to the Iraqi emergency response division which is a a unit that had previously been

blacklisted because they had committed war crimes and guess what they were still committing war crimes and so every

night you know just about they would take prisoners and they would tor T them

and they you know rape them with broomsticks and they kill them in a room

right next to where the seals are sleeping so every night they would listen to these

screams and what happened on this particular day is they located you know

the Isis Commander uh in this in this battle uh they called in an air strike

you know an Apache helicopter came in put a few Hellfire missiles into the building leveled the building killed the

Isis Commander killed several Isis bad guys except for one you know the uh The Courier um lived he ran out of the

building he was shot by the Iraqis uh and then you know they put him

on a on a stretcher he was actually interviewed by Iraqi TV um Iraqi TV

reporter clearly appearing on death store they toss him on the hood of a Humvee they drive him around they

finally bring him back to the compound when they did that Eddie you know walks up and the seals

you hear that they’re bringing an Isis prisoner in Eddie walks up and this is in the video um where he just goes to

the Iraqi General he says this guy Isis he says yeah he says all right I got him

and so EDD he clears the Iraqis away from them and if you they didn’t for whatever reason they didn’t do a uh a

translation at the time of what they were saying but you know they were getting ready to torture him and the

Iraqi General said no no no no not in front of the Americans so Eddie clears him out and he

does an assessment on him and he realizes very quickly this guy’s not going to make it okay he last lung he

has you know internal bleeding he has massive injuries um and he and the other members

of the platoon including the witnesses against him agreed we don’t want to hear him

scream so they decided to perform medical treatment on

him until he died they knew he was going to die so

they perform Medical Treatments on them all medically indicated um but and this is the part

that look prosecutors knew this I knew this nobody wanted to touch it because it was [Music]

so difficult at the time but the reality is everything they did was

intended by the book to stabilize somebody with these types of injuries

for transport to a hospital the treatment that they provided only works if you have a

helicopter coming there’s no helicopter coming there’s no helicopters that would

be authorized for a low-level Isis terrorist in these circumstances so they

performed these treatments on them which by the way happens every single day in

ERS across the country right here here for training purposes you know doctors do this in ER

every single day where they get the they get the junior doctors and they’ll do these things on people they know are

going to die they know they know they don’t have any hope but they know that they it can provide some training value to the people who now you said you said

though that it was also to prevent him from screaming and just you know being

tortured from being Tor okay got it they they hit him with morphine

so you know they they you know they knocked him out with the uh with painkillers and they did these on him

until he died that was the plan so Eddie um at one

point they started taking rocket fire so he left and went up to the top of the

building to deal with that and Cory Scott the medic was there left with the uh with with the body right and he

realized that they had stabilized him and he was

breathing through the tube and so before anybody came back corus scop put his

thumb over the tube so and and Eddie knew this going into he

didn’t know he didn’t know about the thumb over the tube he didn’t he didn’t know about the thumb over the tube when Eddie came back he came back

down excuse me he he looked at him he you know checked his his pulse and

everything he flicked his eyelids and then he pulled out his knife and he poked him in the side he

didn’t stab him didn’t penetrate but something it’s it’s a dead

check he did these things to try and promote some form of response to just verify that he was in fact

dead so excuse me ultimately when these individuals

wanted to make the false claims against Eddie they had an

incident that was clear in everybody’s mind they took a of

Truth and they changed the fact slightly right turn it into a

crop so that’s that’s the true story of what happened there on that day it’s not

something that we brought out during the trial

because I didn’t need to M I didn’t need to prove what had actually happened they

did all I had to prove was that the government’s version was not true and that stabbing was not the cause of death

and that there was no evidence of the stabbing and there wasn’t so I didn’t

need to go down this route um the government knew I believe about

this they chose not to go down this route because obviously this would have you know totally destroyed their ability

to charge him right with murder but that’s um that’s what that case is

really about I just think it’s fascinating that they were willing to let somebody go to jail for possibly the

rest of their life or for many many years over something that wasn’t didn’t

play out the way they knew that it had played out you know what happens is and

this this is true in a lot of cases when people make false accusations they don’t necessarily think about the

second and third order effects of how far is this going to go and all of the sudden when the train starts rolling

down the mountain they don’t know how to get off is the only way to get off is to

admit hey I lied to NCIS I I I gave false statements to law

enforcement I committed a felony okay he didn’t commit a felony I did right nobody’s going to say that no you know

one of the guys actually visited Eddie in the brg and told him you know apologized to him and

said we never thought that it would come to this they probably just wanted to see

that their boss got censored in some way they probably wanted to see that he got

what he deserved because they were traumatized correct and they wanted somebody to pay for that correct

and and at the same time you know that’s that’s from the witness’s perspective

from the command’s perspective I understand their point of view too I mean from the Admiral’s perspective you

know Admiral green and I don’t say eye to eye on much but I understand his perspective because he believed and he’s

been vocal about this that at the time after two decades of war that there was a lack of discipl a breakdown in

discipline and he thought this was a great opportunity you can take this case

take a very popular well-liked seal former sailor of the year put him in jail for

life and then that is the deterrent effect to help reins good order and

discipline into the SEAL Teams and I believe that that’s you know

really what they were trying to do and the problem from the commands perspective

is they believed NCIS they went forward with this you

know plan to in go order and discipline and they skipped over the necessary step of let’s make sure the guy actually is

guilty before we do this right and then much like you know witnesses as things

start to fall apart what senior officer is willing to admit hey I made a mistake well they

know their entire career is going to be on the line if they do that and no by the way not just their career but any

future prospects after the military of of of gaining kind of reputational

credibility to get that next step in their careers as well which is part of

the reason why and and I wanted to transition to this is that I do think that there

is some very fundamental problems within our military justice system when it

comes to Due Process because of that issue yeah and because there isn’t this willingness to admit fault or admit when

things don’t go correctly and even with command investigations so if we just

take it down a notch from the criminal level and what happened with Eddie down to the administrative level I know there

are a lot of people who don’t feel that the command investigative process gives them due process and I’d love to know

what your thoughts are on that issue the Department of Defense does a

lot of things extraordinarily well um Chief among them waging more

absolutely one thing that Department of Defense is absolutely horrific at is

conducting investigations yes it is it is one of the weak points of the department um and

and understandably so if you take a step back I have dealt with investigators from so many different

jurisdictions across the country state federal local and you know so I’ve seen

what good investigators are um in the

military you have you know so you’ve got multiple levels you’ve got the command

investigators which are not really investigators they just all they have zero training they go to what a legal

school for maybe three weeks and then they’re called investigators or some of them don’t are just appointed they’re

the investigating officers they just happen to be the person that gets that collateral Duty right and and some of those investig to be fair some of those

investigations I look at they very well done they are says okay I’m taking this thing real

seriously I’m going to run it to ground and they do a great job sometimes you read them and you just

say support and defend the Constitution but don’t read it

um but so you have the command investigators you have that level of

training problem you at the top you have like NCIS and and those guys but here’s the thing do you know how you get hired

to work at NCIS no I do not you go on US USA jobs.gov

you upload your resume and you check all the boxes of the federal agencies you want to apply to now you want to be a

federal agent you want to carry a badge and a gun and and be a Fed you’re going to go on you’re going to check all these boxes FBI DEA ATF

HSI NCIS you only get hired when all the

threel agencies reject you yeah that’s

not NCIS agents are and look I I’ll say this to their face they’re mostly the

people that couldn’t make it in any of the other agencies yes they go to the same uh

training facility uh you know the federal law enforcement training center but NCIS in my experience has a pretty

horrific um culture great at making TV shows

terrible at actually conducting investigations maybe they should W spend more of their time watching their TV

show than you know what they’re actually do them but you know there’s very much in this mindset of you know if I have

this investigation I have to I have to find something I have to find you know I have to get the guy and a lot of that

goes back to statistics of well how many cases did you have and how many arrest do you have and all that kind of stuff

so NCIS is again there’s exceptions with any one abolutely I have

a case right now where I’m I’m actually working with the NC agent who’s who’s so far done a great job but a lot of these

guys are just you know but and it’s not it’s not them it’s what we’re talking about Tim is the

system and the structural checks and balances that are within these systems that don’t get a person that has more

training skills the guy who investigated Eddie’s case Joe waren had been an NCIS

agent for like two years how he got assigned to the case I have no

idea the way that he investigated that case was just so completely amateur I

had as my investigator I brought Bernie Carrick the former police commissioner of the mypd

and it’s it’s it’s an all if somebody wasn’t facing life in jail it would have been a humorous experience to watch him

watch the interrogation video is because he’s just sitting there banging his head on the on the floor

saying yeah I could take a third grade Detective from you know from any Precinct in the city and they would do

better than this um so NCIS you know they don’t do very good

investigation then in the middle you have the IG which you know yes they’re professional

investigators who you know aren’t at the level of carrying a gun yeah I’ve done a

lot of shows with with about the IG system and the overhaul that’s needed and and I think what we’re what we’re

getting at Tim is is just this lack of of of resources and Manpower and and

attention and Care yeah that needs to be placed uh on the Justice on the military

justice system and that goes into another question that I I wrote you about and and I don’t think this is the

only reason of course I do think that again I always say I love the Navy I’ve

I’ve been in this business now uh next month actually right around this time in fact next month to the day uh I will

have been in the Navy for 28 years so this is a this is a lifelong advocation for me and I say it all the time if I

didn’t love this organization as much as I do I wouldn’t be the first person to respectfully criticize it when it

doesn’t do things in my view in a way that makes sense and not putting resources is towards due process and

people and training and time I believe is breaking trust with the ranks and I’m

curious of your thoughts on that issue do you think this issue relates to some

of the issues that we have with recruiting and retention no question absolutely no question because when you

see the some of these cases as I do um look I just a quick

disclaimer nobody invites me to any of the good stuff in the Navy

anymore I I I see a lot of stuff that goes on in the Navy but unfortunately

nobody invites me to good stuff and there is a lot of good stuff that’s not that’s not true my my friend my you know

my first client from back at the na Academy he invites me to his change change of commands and things like that

but aside from that I I only get to see the worst part of it but here’s the thing

when these cases happen and when officers uh or

enlisted are not treated correctly everybody else sees that it’s a morale

issue it’s um it’s a retention issue

uh let me tell you a quick story so you see this uh this picture above my head of the Super Hornet I do and I’m G to

put you on full screen so the audience can see as well okay so so so this this

uh drawing of the superordinate um that was given to me by four of my clients I

represented the uh you know it was pretty much the whole leadership structure of vfa 106 and it was a situation where a

junior unqualified instructor pilot had um weaponized the IG system to protect

himself uh and he’ filed a whole bunch of IG complaints and then they received

reports that he was secretly teaching students his method of landing on an

aircraft carrier um which is not the approved method of landing on an aircraft

carrier and so you know they went to they went to the uh you know to airl Jag

and said what do we do and they said well start a command investigation of him just because he has you know

protective whistleblower status you still got to treat him the same and so they did and before the investigation

even began there was already an IG investigation of the investigation so um ultimately the EXO

of the Squadron was removed and the co of the Squadron um

did something that I thought was absolutely brilliant he considered resigning but

his mentor told him do a command climate survey right now um or in the aviation

Community it’s a safety survey but essentially it’s a command climate survey and what he got was a collection

of all of these officers saying

watching the EXO get relieved is the deciding factor in

whether I’m going to reup wow I have decided to leave the Navy because of what I saw

here and that that survey was something that was integral for me in doing something

that I’ve never seen anybody do before I got him reinstated in

Squadron wow after being relieved so um you know that’s that’s

just one tiny example but one that was very visible to me because of you know

all the responses in this uh in this command climate survey of what this does to be

people I I’ve represented plenty of plenty of guys that you know you see

this with obviously there’s been plenty of you plenty of enlisted seals that watched what what happened with Eddie um

you know I you know you gave my bio at the beginning where it talks about one Forester Aral that’s that’s an outdated

bio I’ve actually represented multiple um flag officers at this point and while

I’m not going to talk about the specifics of those the reality is that when when people

see unfair treatment it affects morale right now ship’s captains 05

crowd is terrified because they see how the IG system has been weaponized

weaponized yep they see good commanding officers being relieved of command and career career ending things for really

no justification um I have had the uh I don’t even know what the

right word is the honor the uh you know the terrible duty of representing more

of my Naval Academy classmates than I care to in relief of command situations

none of whom deserved it but every single one of them it it affects people

oh it’s it’s a mental health issue too it it destroys people when they’re relieved publicly and

they’re not able to get their side of the story out there and that’s why these

conversations Tim are so important to have but it does it doesn’t just affect them and obviously I’m primarily focused

on my individual client making sure that they’re okay but the reality is when the

co gets relieved for something that really they shouldn’t have been relieved for you have to expect that the EXO and

every single department head on that ship doesn’t no longer intends to scream

for command that has to beix you’re not you’re not just taking out that one Co

you’re removing that entire slate of department heads you are from the command

slate yeah one of my classmates said said it best where he said at this point a a

successful command tour is getting to the end without a substantiated IG yeah

I I mean I can tell you I have friends who are cosos who tell me the exact same thing that that you’re talking about

right now um because they they know they can’t trust the system right and so in

until the system changes then these issues are going to keep happening and that’s why I’m so

adamant that people tell their stories even if they have to tell their stories once they’re retired y they they need to

tell their St stories because people need to know that they’re not alone and they’re not the only ones who have had

this happen to them the worst thing for me is

so I you know I see so many of these cases obviously and I see so many men

and women that they devote their entire adult lives you know their

youth their health MH to this thing and then right at the very end right right

right at the very end yeah they leave on a bad note right and they don’t get to leave on their terms and and they’re

fighting just to be able to keep what they have earned you know their retirement yeah and and it’s it’s

heartbreaking to me and in so many of these cases I sit there and I say I was

having this conversation the other day with somebody you know as a Navy we train the greatest fighter

pilots in the world greatest ship drivers in the world the greatest Maritime Commandos in the world um you

know submarine driver all these things we have phenomenal Emergency Room Physicians

that can patch patch guys up with bullet wounds and and all sorts of IEDs and and

all these things all across the board we have we develop really phenomenal skill

sets but not an investig ations were legal

yeah and by that one tiny little piece not being given the same attention

to every that everything else is it all falls

apart and we have the capability there’s no reason why we can’t and I say we

obviously I’m I’m not in the Navy but but I I identify with it quite a bit um

there’s no reason that the Navy cannot train the best trial

lawyers in the country too I Tim Tim I feel the same way about communicators

like I don’t I mean I could go on and I won’t on this conversation about why we don’t do podcasts why we don’t have long

form conversations why aren’t Admirals speaking authentically to the camera and

and and having the kinds of conversations that I have yeah um I it’s just uh one of those I think they’re

scared and I think that it’s our gener you and I think around the same generation and I think the people in

front of us are just not at that level yet where they understand that this is the new way to communicate I I don’t

know um but go ahead you know and but that’s a good point because authenticity

and communication is important um sometimes my clients are a little bit scared when we go into a

courtroom and they and they look over and they realize my God Tim doesn’t have a script he doesn’t have a list of

questions he didn’t write an open statement right he’s not reading off of a screen I have I have a list of bullet

points you know and they’ll watch the prosecutor get up with their binder and they’ll put the binder on the on the

podium and they’ll start reading their opening statement never actually look up at the

jury and the emotion that they’re you know the fake emotion that they’re trying to put into this it comes off as

fake because they’re not looking they’re not connecting right they lost and then

I walk up with my little yellow pad that has my bullet points I put it on the

podium sometimes depending on how outrageous the prosecutor was I’ll I’ll make fun of them and I’ll kind of you

know grab the podium real quick and and stare down and and then walk around in front of it um but I just sit there and

I look each juror in the eye and I have a conversation with them that’s what everybody wants they

just want to be seen they want to when you do that when you do that when you actually look at your

audience and and and speak to them the emotion will

match because you’re communicating with them and and as you see them sitting

there nodding your head like you’re doing right now I know that you know I know that what I’m saying is at the

right level and and and jury jury box chairs are great because they’re they’re

on swivels and they have the spray and so as long as the jury is sitting there like rocking if this jury’s

rocking everything’s good and as soon as the chairs stop Dead all right let

me and and so but it’s the same thing with with public speaking you know if

you’re sitting there focus on your prepared script you’re not really connecting with

the audience and I love you know when you see a speaker um

who you know instead of having the and I know the N at least in my time the Navy

really sucked at the audio equipment uh I don’t know if they’ve gotten better at that but if you can get away from the

podium microphone and you whether you have a lavalier mic or a wireless mic and you step out in front and you

actually just look into the crowd the exact same

script comes across totally differently and yeah it’s it’s received differently because people know that

you’re talking to them and you’re not just worrying about what you’re going to say and we had somebody comment about

the IG system and I just want to clarify and and they said you know the IG system is used to protect unsafe leaders too

the dysfunction goes both ways and and I I would say absolutely this isn’t just about leaders who are targeted this is

also about people who feel that even if they are bullied or they’re at a lower level uh depending on who the person is

that’s bullying them they feel they don’t have a voice too I definitely think it goes both ways the one of the

biggest problems with the IG system is that in addition to having investigators who don’t who frequently don’t get it

right there is no due process in there because the IG gives its finding and

then the commander has to take action based on the ig’s finding there is no trial

no NOP and and the issue is too you can’t bring in your own Witnesses so if

you have an issue and my camera just went out so I’ll switch over to my other one but um if you have if there is an

issue going on you you don’t have that option to um bring in your own Witnesses

or to go ahead and um right build your own case you don’t have an option to do

that and I think that’s also part of the issue with the IG system is that there isn’t really that option built into

doing that would you agree yeah absolutely I mean if I read some of these

IG reports and and I think this is so incompetent this this IG investigator

wouldn’t survive five minutes of cross-examination by me but the commander is

required to accept it and to take some action as a result of it right there

there is no process to you know to really you know fight it and you know

there are some ways of doing it and obviously that’s something that I that I get creative with you know occasionally

and and so that I can you know get some movement out of it but here’s the other thing is that even

there if the IG gets something really wrong there is a way through the administrative procedure act to take it

into the US District Court and to and to challenge it but guess what I can do that and not

a single Jag officer can do it it’s beyond the scope of what they’re

allowed to do and so if you don’t hire a civilian lawyer that Avenue of appeal is

closed and and and that really goes into another question that I had for you and that is do you feel that there are

things on people’s end that they can do before they say I want to hire a lawyer

are there self-help options even available to people to fight some of these

cases before they say I want to hire a lawyer right because I I think that a

one a lot of times some people can’t even afford it and that’s the other issue is that they’ve got these an

administrative investigation that’s bearing down on them and at the same time they they can’t afford several

thousands and tens of thousands of dollars later they might not even be successful in their case and and that’s

another problem with our justice system in the military is that it really isn’t

set up to to Def to to help people that want to help themselves that’s definitely a problem I mean it’s

something that um I

mean so it’s something that Eddie and I have talked about a lot um it’s something that

he’s each of us are attacking in our own way um you know my my way of attacking

that problem which goes beyond just just you know military clients but lawyers

are way too expensive okay most lawyers ERS overcharge and a lot of them overcharge

because they’re maintaining a big fancy and totally useless office right and so

you know my business model I built it from the ground up to be with no office

um so I don’t pay rent anywhere and so 50% of the revenue that goes to a law firm goes immediately to maintaining

that office um this is this is my office in the basement of my house and if you you

know look up online you’ll see that you know that I do have you know two you a couple of mailboxes uh you know one is

is a mailbox in a law firm you know in in New York and the other one which is

our main mail handling Center is on the fourth floor of my gym over in Arlington

Virginia and so I go over there in the mornings and I work out and then I go upstairs and grab the mail uh and so as a result of that our

rates are much lower I try to cut rates in about half of what we would otherwise

charge uh that’s that’s how I’ve tried to attack the problem Eddie went a different way where he and his family

because of what happened to them uh they started a nonprofit organization the PIP

hitter Foundation which specifically exists to raise funds to help uh people

you know hire lawyers to be able to defend themselves in these cases uh and obviously you know there’s only a

limited number of cases that they can really do that in uh but that is the way

that that they have you know decided to try and you know Level Playing Field you know there

are some nonprofits out there that will do that there’s a um there’s a program

out of a law school down in Texas uh where you know one of the professors there who’s I think a retired

lieutenant colonel Army Jeff attott he has a lot of law students that help him

out um with these cases um you know pro bono so um you know all those you know type

of things do exist you know they’re you know it’s not something that everybody

necessarily has access to you know depending on the severity of your case

um but certainly everybody’s entitled to you

know Jag attorning um although even there you know different Services has have

different trip requires as to when you’re actually entitled to have an attorney assigned uh the Air Force is

much better than the Navy you know they will give you an attorney much earlier whereas the Navy basically says you know

no you don’t get an attorney until you’re actually charged so but you can always go to the

defense service office to you to consult with an attorney to kind of you get um

get ahead of it um and the IDE a of going it

alone is never a good idea right you know the whole you know the Miranda

warnings or you know 31 Bravo uh rights in the military you have the right to

remain silent anything you say can will be used against you you have the right to an attorney those mean something they were

written you know by the courts for a very specific purpose when you are questioned you do have the right to

remain silent you should exercise it right you have the right to an attorney you should exercise it it is not

something that can be held against you that you have exercised those rights and yet the people that I see that are the

absolute worst in the entire country at protecting themselves are police

officers and Military interesting because we all have

this innate faith in the system you know hey I’m a cop or I’m a

military officer I can just if I innocent people don’t

get arrested so if I just tell them the truth then this whole thing will go away I and I don’t want to get a lawyer

because then I’ll look guilty right and they’re the worst at it and so my

message to all of them is you you fight for the

Constitution exercise it right exercise those rights they cannot hold it against

you that you want to consult with an attorney and once you speak to an attorney if there is a way of talking

yourself out of these charges the attorney can do it for you

you can’t right so yeah even even in the

context of if you can’t hire a civilian attorney you have to go with Jag counsel do it as early as

possible I agree and I think that there are ways that at the lowest level first

you can try certain Avenues what comes to mind for me is when I had a home leak at the house we uh bought at my last

Duty station we utilized a few consultations with

lawyers to help us better understand the process of what we would be up against

and through that process we got to a place where we could ask for a demand

letter and before this is over the course of many many months before we

decided to do the demand letter i decided to just research the guy on Facebook and I found out he was a prior

Navy sailor he was a nuke he seemed like a nice kid there was something about the

way he looked online at least that made me think he could be reasonable and we

reached out to him and and lo and behold he hired some guy down the street who had no credentials to patch up this leak

that was causing our entire you know top of our house to flood and basically be caved in and he came over to the house

he saw the things for himself he liked my husband thought my husband was a straightup guy and he agreed to give us

$10,000 in exchange for not suing him and my husband was able to fix everything for 5,000 plus supplies it

was one of the most amazing Stories and and even the guy came over for dinner for a cookout one night later on many

months later and you know we we we we signed an agreement that I would not go we would I would not go after him we

would not sue him and so there are ways sometimes I do believe to to try to

resolve things at the lowest level and as you said Tim that’s what you strive to do with your clients it’s not take

everything to the to trial it’s it’s it’s try to figure out what is there a way to win first at at that lower level

that’s true I mean there are plenty of my cases that you’ve read about there are many many more you haven’t read

about um you for example you don’t know a single one of the flag officers I’ve

represented because all of those are quiet you know and it’s some of them may

become public later who knows but um I

believe in every single case that before I go into court and just start

throwing bombs that the best way to resolve any

dispute is to plan an honorable exit for your opponent

an honorable face saving exit for your opponent plan that exit route and then

show it to them and and ask them you know please this is the way out if if we do this

then everybody saves face nobody has to admit that they screwed up and and and

everything is fine and I do that in every single case and all the cases that

you’ve read about are the cases where the other side has is has listened to my

proposed exit route and said no okay you know

it’s once you have offered the you know the civilian population the opportunity

to leave the oper the area you know then you can commence bombing yeah and that’s that’s conflict

resolution 101 yeah is is finding that way to winwin and and so that both sides

walk away feeling empowered and I think that’s part of it as well is that each side of the equation has to feel that

they were they were heard and that their concerns were addressed sure had a

recent conflict at work where I think both sides hopefully have now walked away with their concerns addressed and

it was one of the hardest things I i’ I’ve dealt with as as a Pao but it was um these are the this is life I mean

that’s how I see a lot of these issues is that these are the things we’re all going to deal with in life life and I

know we’ve been talking for so long and I could talk to you forever but I I couldn’t I’d be remiss I’m going to

shift gears one more time and I do have to ask you about what um and I know

we’re not going to review the whole case or anything but what was your experience like um just generally speaking uh

representing a former president that was a unique

one uh you know that was a case that um he had he had heard of me you know

through the Eddie Gallagher case of course and so it was it was very

interesting to me because I got to do

things that when you’re sitting there in law school and they’re going on about certain constitutional principles like

you know executive privilege and that kind of stuff and you sit there and say

okay that’s that’s nice it’s interesting I’m never going to actually deal with that and yeah here I

am in a locked courtroom before the chief judge arguing about executive

privilege you know in this like secret proceeding um you know that was kind of

cool it it was interesting things and I’ve learned more about you know certain

aspects of the law that I never would have had the opportunity to to do

before um individually um yeah I got

along with the with President um you know I think we we had

a a fairly you know good relationship and you know nothing nothing related to my decision

to leave reflected on him individually it was more about a lot of the other people that were around him that I think

prevented me from doing my job the way that I felt needed to be done

um when representing anybody that has a campaign it always presents problems you

know I am I am not a politically active person you know I I represent people on

both sides of the aisle I employ people on both sides of the aisle I don’t want

to alienate one side or the other and I see no value in a business person taking

a you know an extreme political position uh I mean unless that’s been your

business model from the beginning if you you know if you found the coffee company based on you know the Second Amendment

you okay then then that’s yeah good point totally fine but if you’ve but if you have another business

where you have a broad range of clients and then you all of a sudden decide okay you know what now that we’re in the era of trump I’m going to take half of my

client base and just you know alienate them because I don’t like you anymore because we disagree on who should be

president you know that’s I don’t agree with that and so um as lawyers you know we have an

ethical obligation to focus on the facts evidence in the law not on the politics

and so that’s what I tried to do you know with his case and with others and so you know when a campaign gets

involved yeah I try I try to get away from that and I’ve represented people

with campaigns before and for the most part and this is now my rule going

forward if a client has a campaign then we need to make things very clear which

is they are responsible for getting him his next job or getting him him or her to keep their job I’m responsible for

keeping them out of trouble yeah those are separate things they are they need

to stay out of my way and that’s it yeah and and I’ve had

that you know I once you know I was representing a few people that had campaigns and they basically said that

they said you know Tim you’re here to keep me out of trouble you guys are here to get me reelected you know you guys

stay out of his way anything you need give it to him yeah it’s a separate line

I mean it’s a complete and it should be I mean for our country to run in the ways that we would like for it to run

and for what we want it to stand for which is the truth and Justice uh we we

have to put aside that to pursue in a court of law what makes the most sense

and one thing I always have admired about your interviews is is every time you were asked about Trump and you’ve

been asked in a lot of these interviews if you Google your name they’d ask you the most misleading questions

and and it’s like they just have this opinion I mean I saw one recently with CBS and it was just disappointing as I

watch it because it’s like they’re not going to Rattle you they’re you’re just going to answer the question the way

that you know is the correct way to answer and it’s like why did they even have you on in the first

place when they’re not even really what you have to say the reason why they had me on I have I have a great relationship

with CNN okay I’m on c yeah and and the reason why they had

me on is because they need to have a diversity of

views and if everybody on there is saying oh the walls are closing in he’s

definitely going to jail then they repeat the mistakes that they had of the Bob Muller investigation MH I think that

they all ended up with egg on their face at that time and so now they realize and some of them have been very explicit

with me on this that they need to hear the other side uh and the reason why

they all like me is because most of the time when they invite somebody from the other side to come in they instead give

campaign talking points about oh this is the greatest Witch Hunt in the history of the world and and all this stuff and

I never say the word Witch Hunt on TV but for something like this of saying I

don’t I don’t do that that’s not right not me I’m just going to stick to the to the facts um right and it’s you know

it’s something that I’ve done in a lot of cases you know Eddie’s case you was very politically charged but you know

there it was about how to how to separate from that and you know one of the things you know we always said

president Trump’s involvement was kind of a double-edged sword because on one hand it helped because it got out of

jail and got him to the point where we could actually prepare the defense and on the other hand it took half the

media and had them you know pursuing this whole agenda of Eddie is

guilty because Trump supported him and and so you know and I

um if you don’t mind just a quick you know story here is to you know to inform you know my

philosophy on this um if you go back way to the beginning

um John Adams second president of the United States tried and won the trial of

the British soldiers accused of murder in the Boston Massacre and that was an extremely politically divisive issue at

the time you know British soldiers fired on an unarmed crowd and killed you know several you know citizens of Boston and

people wanted them hanged and joh Adams took on the defense

he was not a loyalist he was not a fan of the crown but he was a fan of justice

and when he accepted that um that assignment he actually said you know

they can expect you know no you know no prevarication or sophistry from me which

are words that we don’t really use these days anymore he said nothing more than facts evidence or the

law tried that case and he set aside the politics and he

focused on the facts and he showed how there was adequate provocation how it did fall under you know the self-defense

that they were under attack that they were being you know pelted by ice and and oyster shells and clubs and all of

these things and that the order to fire did not come from the commander it actually came from the crowd and

ultimately in closing arguments he acknowledged the politics of it

but asked the jury to set it aside and he said facts are stubborn things and

whatever may be you know our our wishes our inclinations or the dictates of our

passions they cannot alter the state of facts or evidence and they voted not

guilty and that trial and the manner in which he tried that case which yeah it a

somewhat hollywoodized version of it was in the TV show John Adams but there’s a phenomenal book about it that really got

into the you know really dissected all of it because it was also the first trial that was ever um

transcribed in this country or actually before this country existed um in these

colonies and so that’s a trial that I have studied you know very deeply and

really guides My Philosophy on how to conduct myself as a lawyer particularly

in politically divisive matters I love it I think that this is

something that is so refreshing and that we really need in these divisive periods

before we did your I did your we came on this broadcast I wanted to even just

look up where Trump’s legal cases were and it was so hard for me to because

he’s got a number of different cases going on in Georgia he got one I forget the other state but there’s about four I

think four New York Georgia Federal Cas DC Florida but the the headlines are so

divisive and even the way in which the articles are written in our mainstream press that that that I finally found a

Forbes article with a timeline and I remember thinking finally I can actually

read this and sort of understand what the next steps are and and where the case stands but it is very hard in our

current media environment for people to get factual information without a slant

and so this is why we need a legal system that works because this is one of

the few institutions I feel where people can still receive some measure of

Justice because like you said the the the process of evidence and and and due

process gives this longer version of of events to play out in a way where

different evidence can come to light in a more methodical fashion and if we aren’t protective of that

then we’re really just going to fall prey to totalitarianism and and and in

Anarchy there there I I really believe that and and so the work that you’re

doing Tim is is so important and is so vital and I do believe people like

yourself who come into the milary and work with our lawyers and and and kind of force them to level up their game I

believe will have an effect over time of making our justice system better I do believe

that so thank you you’re welcome um with that I’ve think I’ve ex asked you I know

we went this is probably I think one of my longest podcasts that I’ve done but it was so worth the time and I and I

thank you so much the trial lawyer talk we go over time is there anything else that I

didn’t ask you about that you would like to leave our audience with or or anything else that you’d like to

add um I mean I think you covered you know most of it I think that the you know the big thing for me

is I I would love more than anything for the for the Navy and and the OD to be

able to improve their legal system and you know it was I think it was during

the Stu sheller case where somebody said you know you know essentially we’re fighting against the Marine

Corps and and I you know and trying to you know trying to hurt the Marine Corps

or something like that and I and I said no no it’s not that at all I’m not fighting against the Marine

Corps and I don’t fight against the Navy I’m not trying to beat up on the Navy there are certain individuals within the

system that don’t do the right thing and there are certain aspects of the in

institutional you know processes which you know can cause bad

results but ultimately I’ve always believed even though it looks like you I

may be fighting against the Navy you quite the opposite right I want yeah I love the

name so do I I miss it every single day in my and and I want it to be the best

that it can be and I want the people there to be taken care of the best that they can and so um just because you are

questioning the status quo just because you are you know pushing back on on things you know Jags Jags always get um

tied up in knots when they accidentally say something to me like well that’s the way it’s

done oh really yeah why well guess what well and I think that the military

gonna do that this people like us I mean I I I really believe that I believe that there if

there aren’t people that are willing to respectfully and factually uh question

things then that is the way things have always been done and you’re going to have a lot of unhappy people and and and

life is about change and growth and that’s how you get those changes and those growth so thank

you so much for for taking your time to come on the show and and share your expertise um if people want to find you

online uh they can I know they can Google you your website comes right up is any anything additional any any

projects coming down the pike that you want to let people know about so you know I’m you know my website like you said

it’s paratory lawgroup.com um on Instagram which is kind of my main

platform you know uh parlor laog group for the firm or my personal one is at T

paror um projects I have coming up I’m actually working on a book right now um

um it’s it’s kind of a unique book because uh Eddie Gallagher has given me

a privilege waiver to actually write a book about that case and to to discuss things of of

really the nuts and bolts of how it happened in a way that you know there hasn’t really ever been a book by a

criminal lawyer on how they tried a one a murder case because of privilege issues and so

but it was important to Eddie for the story to be told and for people to learn from it and so that’s something that I’m

writing right now um to not only help people understand how that case really went down but also to discuss a lot of

the you know the more intricate details of where I think the fault lines are in

the military justice system and how things can be improved and so you know

it’s you know it’s intended to be a um you know a book that would appeal to a

wider audience you know I think you know law students and lawyers you know can look at it as a good lesson on on how to

do certain things you know Military Officers can look at it as as a lesson on certain things and then people that

just love reading John Grom they can realize we all of a sudden found

ourselves in the middle of one of his novels and uh and so that’s that’s kind

of the project that I’m working on right now well I love it and I and I think there needs to be more more conversations

about that um I I’m definitely a a a law law true crime junkie so uh I will I

will probably definitely be checking I will be checking that book out and uh I just want to thank you again I will I

will probably go full screen here in a moment and meet you backstage to say goodbye but thank you so much for coming

on the stories of Service Podcast thank you all right guys thank you so much for

joining me tonight um I have an unexpected trip to Stockholm next week so I’m not sure if I’ll be doing a show

uh next week as I thought I was going to but uh I will keep you all posted thank you so much for joining me tonight if

you’re um on YouTube please hit that subscribe and uh please take care of

yourself as I always say take care of each other and have a wonderful evening thanks a lot for joining me tonight

byebye